Curse

cthulhu reborn · Feb 21, 2010, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Yeah , because all is black or white. If something is powerful but can be used only for 1 class , its power is X. If that can be used by all classes , its power is at least 8x .... i cant believe you asked that seriously because its plain simple , hope its a joke

.

Yeah this is something I posted about years ago already from a different angle. I always felt that the most powerful spells/skills should be under the primary ability and not one of the other ones. This ensures that you don't have other classes running around with them.

It's really ridiculous that a necro/rit is the best healer in the game and that ranger/necro's have the best toucher builds. I never thought it should be possible that other primaries could outdo your primary. So I am always for changes that make a necro the best necro, the rit the best rit etc.

And I suppose that class pve skills like cop should be limited to primary class only. But that's an entirely different discussion I guess. I probably upset some people just even mentioning this idea...hehehe.

Gill Halendt · Feb 21, 2010, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

And I suppose that class pve skills like cop should be limited to primary class only. But that's an entirely different discussion I guess. I probably upset some people just even mentioning this idea...hehehe.

The problem with CoP was its stackability, so basically 8x CoP and multiple copies could blow anything up to smithereens.

They could have just solved this issue by having CoP trigger only on your Mesmer hexes (which I believe is just how it worked when first released).

QueenofDeath · Feb 21, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Back to what really counts though I'm just glad Shadow Form and 600 Smite and Obsidian is getting the once over and will finally become just another skill like the rest of them. They had better really nerf SF good though or many will be pissed.

cthulhu reborn · Feb 21, 2010, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

The problem with CoP was its stackability, so basically 8x CoP and multiple copies could blow anything up to smithereens.

They could have just solved this issue by having CoP trigger only on your Mesmer hexes (which I believe is just how it worked when first released).

Well it would certainly complicate matters but I am not sure if it would stop it. Together with a range of illusion hexes, enough to make sure everybody has a different hex or two, they might still find a way to make a new way of spamming CoP. Making it Mesmer only would certainly take that whole possibility out of the picture entirely

Xenomortis · Feb 21, 2010, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

2 Bleedings dont stack when necromancer uses some blood spells and someone inflicts bleeding again , why 2 -20 armor debuffs should stack ?.

Because there's nothing stating that won't happen.
Go to the Isle of the Nameless.
Cast Aggressive Refrain (keep it maintained for CA).
Buff yourself with Shield of Regeneration or Weapon of Warding.
Take some damage and observe average numbers.
Now cast Healing Signet.

The -40 armour stacks with the -20 from CA (at least, it appeared to when I did it).
Your comparison to the bleeding condition is flawed. A much better analogy would be degeneration from multiple sources (which clearly stacks). The difference between degen and armour is that I know of no limit to how low AL can be debuffed (but a degen cap clearly exists).

The Josip · Feb 21, 2010, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lishy

I'm pretty sure mesmers and dervishes will eventually be covered in a future update. Until then, these seem to be the priorities.

I dont blame ANet, I blame players like you and Arkantos with fairytalish (i would say childishly naive idiotic but I'd get warning point) view of the world. It's not like this game is 1 month old, it's several years old and that's how long mesmers have been crap in PvE. Then some of us come and ask for buffs, and what does ANet see, a bunch of people saying "oh its ok, we can wait 5 more years and then in gw2 mesmer might be ok.. and if not future update might cover it, like gw3".

Who cares if FUTURE UPDATE buffs mesmers when no one will be left to play neither mesmers nor gw?

Lets make it opposite - lets make mesmers super good and nerf other classes to current mesmer level. Then when you complain about your class we mesmers will tell you - dont worry, future update might cover your class.

ANet is 10x smarter than average customer.

Gill Halendt · Feb 21, 2010, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Well it would certainly complicate matters but I am not sure if it would stop it. Together with a range of illusion hexes, enough to make sure everybody has a different hex or two, they might still find a way to make a new way of spamming CoP.

I don't see a problem with it.

It will be indeed complicated, likely more expensive to run - each player must carry a different Mesmer hex, whose cost will add up to that of CoP itself, Arcane Echo, Echo and the echoed CoPs - and that makes 4 skill slots each just to run Cryway. Probably not worth it. Not to mention the attribute points to be spent for the Mesmer hex, unless you want to rely on CoP alone.

It's really not that different from a team running multiples Fire Eles with AP/Meteor Shower/Glyph of Sacrifice. I bet most enemies would die in a matter of seconds under 4-5 Meteor Showers, but is it worth it?

upier · Feb 21, 2010, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

It's really not that different from a team running multiples Fire Eles with AP/Meteor Shower/Glyph of Sacrifice. I bet most enemies would die in a matter of seconds under 4-5 Meteor Showers, but is it worth it?

One is adjacent and the other one is in the area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Yeah , because all is black or white. If something is powerful but can be used only for 1 class , its power is X. If that can be used by all classes , its power is at least 8x .... i cant believe you asked that seriously because its plain simple , hope its a joke

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

You clearly didnt read the new skill description . CA affects paragons like affect any other char but with the new nerf it changes. CA doesnt lower your armor beyond 60 but that debuff DOES , therefore is not a nerf to a nerfed skill , is more like some room to breathe.
Paragons have good armor amount but that doesnt justify the -40 armor when affected by CA and the Debuff . 2 Bleedings dont stack when necromancer uses some blood spells and someone inflicts bleeding again , why 2 -20 armor debuffs should stack ?.

I think you've skipped a few posts.

Cuilan · Feb 21, 2010, 05:32 PM // 17:32

It's nice that the lesser used attributes of the soon to be updated professions are fixed, but it's completely ignoring all the other professions that have problems more than one attribute or set of skills.

Reading the post of the one Test Krewe member not knowing a non-update profession didn't come as a shock. Mesmer players (the few that still exist) could mention possible fixes, how certain builds work (or more like how they stop functioning), what positive things mesmers to actually do (that could be expanded on), and what's it's like in hard mode. However, now there is no reason to as game is now focused on how the Test Krewe wants the game. This game likely lost many new and newer players who liked the mesmer way of getting spells up quickly, disruption, or damage, but then realized that the game is either too hard or that what they like isn't good. Same with other professions. There are players out there who only PvE and there are players who do both.

This update may fix a few over powered things, but it does not promote balance.

Smarty · Feb 21, 2010, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

If and when I can see a solution to the problem, I don't mind pushing for it.

That's fair enough. IMO though, first there needs to be an acknowledgement (amongst the devs and/or within the test crew) that there is even a problem with the desirability of mesmers vs other classes in end-game PvE. I don't mind waiting on a solution, or for you/them to say "well we know we need to come up with something but we're not sure what yet", but atm it seems like ANet is saying "mesmers are fine" when they clearly aren't (compared to other classes, as opposed to able to complete the game etc as a class).

***

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

Just thinking off the bat, adding a line "when unaffected by Cracked Armor" to the end of the -20 armor clause would solve this problem enough, right?

How about dealing with the actual problem and amending how heroes prioritise condition removal so that they don't spam themselves out of energy, rather than permanently reducing a para's armour by 20 if they want to use an IAS from their own class? Something along the lines of "is the character under the effects of AR/SF, is cracked armour the only condition they're suffering from, if yes to both and they're not in danger of dying and/or I'm running low on energy then don't use condi removal just yet".

Shayne Hawke · Feb 21, 2010, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty

How about dealing with the actual problem and amending how heroes prioritise condition removal so that they don't spam themselves out of energy, rather than permanently reducing a para's armour by 20 if they want to use an IAS from their own class?

If the Devs thought they could do that, they probably wouldn't have made this kind of change in the first place. Adjusting the hero AI like this can be something for them to consider in the future, if a cleaner and simpler solution isn't reached.

Buns United · Feb 21, 2010, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

You don't seem to get how these builds work.

I guess I kind of did miss the point of the attack spammer builds Dervishes (primary or secondary) use. My apologies for not doing my research.

Quote:

It's not about the +dmg of the attacks; that is low on the list of priorities. Believe it or not, even at 0 strength, Protector's Strike is the best attack skill for a scythe that a dervish can get their hands on, because it's activation time is so insanely quick. With a buff like AoHM, every attack is like an attack skill. So, what matters is getting in as many attacks as you can. Quick-activation attack skills, then, are the ideal. Chilling Victory's recharge is far too long to be useful. Same with Pious Assault (which is also bad because it removes an enchantment). Attacker's Insight and Lyssa's Assault also fall prey to this. None of these combinations offer anywhere near the sheer dps that a zealous vow build with quick activation and quick recharge attack skills can offer, which is why they are used.

I'm not really interested in the MoD damage both builds can put out, as most battles in PvE will be over much faster, energy isn't as much of an issue (to my experience, atleast) with 4 pips of energy regen and AI+Lyssa's Assault as the only energy management skills. Another (slight) benefit over WE scythe would be there's no movement hinder through the use of Soldier's Stance over Flail. While this might not mean much, hitting moving foes means you'll always make a critical hit. And faster movement in between foes (when groups aren't properly pulled, it happens...) means more attacks made anyway.

Quote:

Also, auto-crits (via buffs) are not possible, because critical hit modifiers stack multiplicatively, not additively. In addition, your crit rate is lower against higher-level foes (though according to the latest research I've seen, this seems to only be so of the initial crit rate, before modifiers are considered).

With auto-crits I meant the insanely high critical strike rate "Fear Me!" seems to offer, ofcourse you won't have a 100% critical strike rate. But with a +5...40% chance you surely shouldn't have problems getting critical hits in.

Quote:

If Anet doesn't fix the problem I noted above, I will probably have no choice but to start exploring a Soldier's Stance type build. Unfortunately, it will be difficult (and likely even impossible) to find a way to use the skill in a D/W build that would not be done better by a W/D. And even if I did succeed, it would be a build with vastly inferior dps than a zealous vow one, and the only thing it would have to show for it is an innate 75% block chance.

Again, I'm sure WE scythe will do more overal DPS against the Master of Damage, in a static 180 seconds fight. In practise things might be different but then again; knowing Anet the numbers will probably favor WE scythe (again.)

P.S. Sorry about the bad wording before, english is not my native language.

Regulus X · Feb 21, 2010, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Mesmers are fine in PvE, So QFT.

Okie, mebbe they're not... LOL but hey, just wait 'til next update! If mesmers don't get buffed next upcoming update, keep waiting! Eventually you'll either:

a.) get bored and move on from GW as a whole,
b.) die waiting for some PvE mesmer love,
c.) accept the fact that whoever's in charge of finalizing decisions on updates doesn't give a rat's behind about mesmers, or
d. ) a jar of almonds! (from the show "Who's Line Is It Anyway" xP)

Tenebrae · Feb 21, 2010, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Because there's nothing stating that won't happen.
Go to the Isle of the Nameless.
Cast Aggressive Refrain (keep it maintained for CA).
Buff yourself with Shield of Regeneration or Weapon of Warding.
Take some damage and observe average numbers.
Now cast Healing Signet.
The -40 armour stacks with the -20 from CA (at least, it appeared to when I did it).

That wont happen what ? if theres no statement saying that they dont stack , they do. The point is that irremovable debuffs are tricky. If you use Frenzy you recieve double damage but you can cancel it with another stance ; you can cancel Healing Signet cast but you cant cancel an Echo or a Refrain. It may seem a little diff for you but in this case , it matters enough to set min armor cap for that debuff imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Your comparison to the bleeding condition is flawed. A much better analogy would be degeneration from multiple sources (which clearly stacks). The difference between degen and armour is that I know of no limit to how low AL can be debuffed (but a degen cap clearly exists).

No is not , they are conditions and they have EXACTLY the same effect ( and both are self inflicted in those cases ), like 2 bleedings , not like Poison and Dissease for example.
In fact , right now , that debuff doesnt exists and CA was created to unify ( i think thats the verb ) -20 armor debuffs ( see Weaken Armor´s previous state ) so this is a step behind . They clearly made CA to cap armor debuffing to 60 and now they are going a step backwards to make sure that AR and SFury give a -20 armor debuff that cant be removed.
Ok , if the point is that , fine ; but the lower armor cap for that debuff should be 60 too ( and it doesnt state the opposite ).

Its pretty unfair like i said that Blood necros dont get a -3 HP degen debuff when using some blood magic spells and get bleeding instead while P wont get CA anymore ..... but an irremovable -20 armor that LOLSTACKS with CA and its reapplied frecuently ( while doing regular Paragon playstyle ofc ). Well that "stacking" should be removed or at least set minimum armor for that debuff at 60 too.

Orry · Feb 21, 2010, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

That wont happen what ? if theres no statement saying that they dont stack , they do. The point is that irremovable debuffs are tricky. If you use Frenzy you recieve double damage but you can cancel it with another stance ; you can cancel Healing Signet cast but you cant cancel an Echo or a Refrain. It may seem a little diff for you but in this case , it matters enough to set min armor cap for that debuff imo.

No is not , they are conditions and they have EXACTLY the same effect ( and both are self inflicted in those cases ), like 2 bleedings , not like Poison and Dissease for example.
In fact , right now , that debuff doesnt exists and CA was created to unify ( i think thats the verb ) -20 armor debuffs ( see Weaken Armor´s previous state ) so this is a step behind . They clearly made CA to cap armor debuffing to 60 and now they are going a step backwards to make sure that AR and SFury give a -20 armor debuff that cant be removed.
Ok , if the point is that , fine ; but the lower armor cap for that debuff should be 60 too ( and it doesnt state the opposite ).

Its pretty unfair like i said that Blood necros dont get a -3 HP degen debuff when using some blood magic spells and get bleeding instead while P wont get CA anymore ..... but an irremovable -20 armor that LOLSTACKS with CA and its reapplied frecuently ( while doing regular Paragon playstyle ofc ). Well that "stacking" should be removed or at least set minimum armor for that debuff at 60 too.

Weaken armour really sucks now though, it never should have been changed, it used to be able to drop armour below 60.

Xenomortis · Feb 21, 2010, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

That wont happen what ? if theres no statement saying that they dont stack , they do.

The quote in my post wasn't quite clear. The first statement in my post is responding to the last bit of the quote from you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

No is not , they are conditions and they have EXACTLY the same effect ( and both are self inflicted in those cases ), like 2 bleedings , not like Poison and Dissease for example.

Cracked Armour is a condition. It reduces AL by 20 down to a minimum of 60.
If Soldier's Fury and Aggressive Refrain are changed so they reduce AL by 20 without CA. Crucially, this will not be a condition (even if it was a condition, it will still be distinct from CA and the following will still apply).
Unless a cap exists then it seems logical that the armour reduction will stack.
The sources of armour reduction are different. It would be possible to be under the effects of both at the same time.

Your comparison was flawed because it is not possible to be under the effect of two Bleeding conditions. However it is quite possible to be under the effect of Poison and Disease and suffer 8 health degeneration and it would be quite possible to be under the effects of the reduction from SF/AR and Cracked Armour.

Akeido · Feb 21, 2010, 07:14 PM // 19:14

All these whiners are ridiculous. I don't think many of you realize how much goes into updating skills. Buffing Mesmer skills isn't as easy as adding damage, lowering cost/recharge time etc. The Krew has to look into all possibilities of how the skill can be used in conjunction with other skills as to make certain that someone won't find a quick way to exploit it in PvE or PvP, cuz that's basically what people in this game do now...find the easiest, quickest way to clear an area by exploiting something in the game.

Get over it.
Cry yourself to sleep rather than on this forum all day.
Play the game as it was meant to be played.

Highlander Of Alba · Feb 21, 2010, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Yes the Mesmers get a hard time of it if you can recall this,

When eye was being prepared for release Anet said we are rebuilding the Mesmer ..gw eye of north (Gwen) I thought hey at least we are going to get something done no so.

All we get is hero Gwen placed in H.O.M..and a few little things to tide the guys over.

The Dervish and Paragon are similar positions, They as far as I am concened only use the saying hear no evil speak no evil..they turn a blind eye also to whats been said and hope it satifies some...I do wonder how many of the test crewe even have a Messmer bet you a dollar not many

Desert Rose · Feb 21, 2010, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

It's really ridiculous that a necro/rit is the best healer in the game and that ranger/necro's have the best toucher builds. I never thought it should be possible that other primaries could outdo your primary.

There's nothing wrong if one aspect of a profession can be used better by another profession, it only becomes problematic if that's the case for every aspect of a profession.

Quote:

And I suppose that class pve skills like cop should be limited to primary class only.

In the case of CoP that wouldn't have helped; it was changed because multiple characters with CoP could spike down several monster mobs within seconds.

Chasing Squirrels · Feb 21, 2010, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lishy

I'm pretty sure mesmers and dervishes will eventually be covered in a future update. Until then, these seem to be the priorities.

I fear that by the time this update comes gw2 will be so close to release or already out